Gamilaroi astrophysicist Karlie Noon dismantles sketchy ambitions to colonize the moon, asteroids and space. Grounded in indigenous sky sovereignty, she presents another way of knowing and caring for the solar system, Milky Way and universe. She shares her knowledge of moon formation, the growing discipline of space environmentalism, her research into the dynamics of the The Milky Way and all we can learn from Sky Country.
Bio:
Karlie Noon is a Gamilaroi astrophysicist and author with over a decade’s worth of experience in science communication and advocating for Indigenous astronomical knowledge systems. She is the co-author of the award-winning book Astronomy: Sky Country, which was awarded the Victorian Premier's Literary Awards 2023 People's Choice Awards. She is currently undertaking a PhD in astrophysics at the Australian National University where she researches the chemical and dynamic characteristics of the Milky Way.
This conversation is hosted and produced by Catherine Polcz with music by Carl Didur.
[00:00:00] I'm Catherine Polcz and this is Plant Kingdom.
[00:00:12] I'm recording in beautiful Sydney on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation
[00:00:16] and I pay respect to their elders past, present and future.
[00:00:20] Plant Kingdom is a conversation series about plants, nature and environment,
[00:00:25] featuring scientists, artists, researchers and writers.
[00:00:28] We released two conversations each month and here from people who have an intimacy with nature.
[00:00:37] Today's conversation is with Gamelurai astronomer Carly Nune.
[00:00:42] Carly is a PhD student in Astrophysics at the Australia National University and in a
[00:00:47] accomplished author. I've had the privilege to collaborate with Carly over the years
[00:00:52] and reading her writing on Sky-Sauberty in Sky Country has taught me so much and it has forever
[00:00:57] changed how I think about and relate to space. In our conversation we covered a lot.
[00:01:03] We spoke about our moon, the beauty of coincidence and the laws of physics in our
[00:01:08] universe. Her research into the dynamics of the Milky Way, Indigenous astronomy and space
[00:01:14] environmentalism. Here's our conversation.
[00:01:21] Well Carly it's so exciting to be able to talk with you again and have been really looking forward to
[00:01:29] chatting. Today having a bit of a different kind of astronomy conversation than we've had in the
[00:01:34] past. Thank you. It's so lovely to be here. It's so lovely to be talking with you.
[00:01:41] This is really nice. Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan that I think you're aware.
[00:01:50] And there's a lot I want to talk to you about and I think some of the
[00:01:56] some of the things are what is right in front of us that a lot of people including me
[00:02:04] probably haven't thought that much about but I guess one of those things that I wanted to talk about
[00:02:10] is the moon. It's in our sky. It's with us every day. It's very special to us.
[00:02:16] And I think we don't really often stop and think about the moon. So I thought it'd be an
[00:02:20] interesting example but Carly what even is the moon. Yeah, it's actually a really
[00:02:29] interesting question because there's so many ways you could answer this right. It's like what is
[00:02:33] the moon from the history that we know of the moon and the signatures that we kind of see
[00:02:41] on them coming from the moon and samples we've collected. The most believed theory,
[00:02:49] the most endorsed theory is that there was a collision millions of years ago with another
[00:02:56] body that body had to be quite large like the size of mons large and there was a collision
[00:03:03] between this body and earth and the fragments of that collision. Eventually you know coalesced
[00:03:10] and collided and eventually formed the moon over again millions of years. So that's kind of
[00:03:16] well where we think the moon come from but I also think it's a really interesting question
[00:03:22] because how we kind of engage with the moon and like you know I really like how you
[00:03:28] opened up this question how you know you said you know we see the moon and you know we you
[00:03:33] know we love it but it kind of has this lead place in society and where it's kind of sat
[00:03:40] within society has changed like just within the past hundred years alone you know how people
[00:03:47] you stir think and talk and speak about the moon and speak with the moon has has really gone through
[00:03:54] this shift and you know I guess you know a lot of things have gone through a shift in the
[00:03:59] in the past one hundred years so it's interesting you know as we we kind of looked to the future
[00:04:06] we're starting to talk about lunar bases yeah it'll be interesting to see how how we talk
[00:04:12] about the moon also shifts and how we connect to the moon. Yeah it's kind of on this
[00:04:18] precipice of change and I guess our relationship with space or space craft is really
[00:04:24] accelerating or changing right now and the moon yeah the origin started of the moon is so
[00:04:30] interesting and this was maybe around the time that just after or formed billions of years ago
[00:04:36] right and I guess life has evolved with the moon in the sky and in response and in partnership
[00:04:46] a relationship with the moon what are some of the ways that life is dependent on the moon
[00:04:53] or influenced by the moon in many ways really you know it's from a few different for a few
[00:05:01] different reasons there's the there's the the I guess the title pool that we experience
[00:05:07] and I'll stay on here I kind of exposed to more more off the moon whether it means that the
[00:05:14] moon is closer or further away from us during different times or it's all-bital period around
[00:05:20] the earth one really interesting impact I guess or consequence of the moon is this similarity
[00:05:30] in the cycle of the moon so the moon obviously goes through phases you know it waxes and
[00:05:36] wains and our sky from from our position down here on earth as we look up at it that cycle
[00:05:41] goes for about 28 days and that's almost the exact length of the the female fertility cycle
[00:05:51] so like you know the the cycle that we have to go through every month and so that's just like
[00:05:58] I don't know really really interesting you know I don't know what you if I'm sure some people
[00:06:06] call it a coincidence but you know I really interesting coincidence at the very least and of
[00:06:12] course we know they're a beautiful you know stories and you know indigenous culture like a variety
[00:06:21] of different interpretations of this throughout different indigenous cultures you know we see
[00:06:28] some communities it's forbidden to look at the moon out of fear that you get like impregnated
[00:06:35] with twins or just like yeah yeah wait a few years yeah and you know it really reflects an
[00:06:48] acknowledgement to the observation of that that coincidence yeah this cycle is matching up
[00:06:56] yeah it's so there's so many coincidences to write just a different one that
[00:07:06] I think of two is you know that that the moon and the sun are almost the same size in the sky
[00:07:16] and that's why you can have it clips is like so many things like that yeah yeah yes
[00:07:25] it's really it's it's it's too it's too quintuences so it's it's so the the apparent what we call
[00:07:34] the apparent size of the moon so how the size of the moon in our sky how it looks to us down here
[00:07:39] from earth is about 400 times smaller than the size of the the sun however the sun is 400
[00:07:49] times further away from us and so that's why we have a clipsers that's why you know we can
[00:07:55] the both Luna and Solar Reclipses happen on a rare occasion you know get that perfect alignment
[00:08:03] of the three celestial bodies right because it's the alignment between the sun and the moon
[00:08:09] to create that and you know where whether you're in the planets like can experience that
[00:08:14] because of that those two coincidences happening it's it's really beautiful to be honest
[00:08:21] and really it's just really poetic of the office on the system yeah I love that
[00:08:29] and I might butcher this one but is it that the relationship between the orbit of the moon
[00:08:36] and the rotation of Earth in the moon is why it's always the same side that we see
[00:08:45] oh yeah so this is to do with synchronous rotation so yeah essentially you know you have
[00:08:53] so that the moon is rotating around its axis just like the earth is rotating around its axis
[00:09:00] every day however that rotation of the moon around its axis matches it's orbit around the earth
[00:09:09] and so it's still rotating in it's still orbiting Earth however both of those rotations have
[00:09:16] synchronized and yeah we only get to see one side of the moon it's pretty cool what if
[00:09:25] we'd find little little magical moment itself of the universe of existence yeah stop it
[00:09:34] cellar system is too many you just do clever I read this that the formation of the moon
[00:09:45] helped stabilize I think it's Earth's wobble and that that helped even create the conditions
[00:09:52] for life oh and Earth's vibe yeah it was I actually have not heard this theory
[00:09:59] the earth does have a wobble that is definitely true whether it's stabilizer and you know things
[00:10:06] do systems do have a way of somethings on this coincidence somethings are like everything is
[00:10:13] governed by laws of conservation laws of angular momentum and you know things just lack to be
[00:10:22] in a state of yeah like rest or equal Librim so it's that definitely could be a theory but
[00:10:30] I one thing I do really like about you know the theory of how the moon was formed and actually
[00:10:35] a lot of things to do is like Earth and life and you know everything we know is we don't know
[00:10:42] you know these are great theories and we have you know generations of very clever people who
[00:10:49] are trying to build this understanding that we have of you know Earth and it's a history and
[00:10:54] evolution but yeah they're just they're just still kind of working theories that we have
[00:11:01] that's the fun part and the moon is yeah I mean every people have been looking at the moon
[00:11:09] since people have been around and it's the shared cultural heritage of everybody I know you've
[00:11:18] have thought a lot about and researched a lot about Aboriginal and First Nations relationships to the
[00:11:25] moon I imagine that must be as varied as culture is too it is but it's also like it's it's
[00:11:35] so nice when you learn about these similarities that different mob have whether it's around the
[00:11:43] Australia or literally around the world like there are so many similarities out there like we you know
[00:11:49] we talk about the seven sisters and how yeah how mind boggling it is that you know it's it's very
[00:11:57] eerily similar to the Greek the Greek stories of the Pilates and the Iran constellations
[00:12:04] but there are so many other similarities between different indigenous groups on the stories
[00:12:11] and because the stories are history thrive they are they are the observations over countless
[00:12:19] generations and yeah it's just I don't know it's just really it's just really cool
[00:12:27] but we we have this glimpse into thousands year old observations and you know happenings
[00:12:37] in the world and in space it's amazing I thought so much about the seven sisters story I
[00:12:44] think you wrote about that in oh yeah in Sky Country but like the coincidence of that or is it
[00:12:52] did it arise that many times or is it that all the best story like how did it yeah so one technique
[00:13:00] caused to the question is why is it seven sisters and there was some research done by Rainoura
[00:13:07] who's a astrophysicist actually in Sydney he was asking like why are all the stories talking
[00:13:14] about seven sisters and you know a lot of the stories there's there's something that happens
[00:13:19] just some of the systems there's always something that performs them you know in the military
[00:13:24] stories they talk about how the fire spirit kidnaps two of the sisters and typically
[00:13:31] the sisters are made out of ice but the the fire spirit steals them and tries to warm them up with
[00:13:37] his fire and this this injuries two of the sisters and they they'd lose a bit of their
[00:13:43] light because you know they've been warmed up and this is there's so many variations of that
[00:13:49] or you know something happening to some of the systems and essentially you know when we look
[00:13:55] up at the palates today we only we only really see like four maybe five like not even five stars
[00:14:03] like I've personally never been able to see five stars and so what Rainoura stood is he
[00:14:11] he took the the motions of the stars in the palates system and essentially reverse them in time
[00:14:19] yeah I was able to to yeah essentially simulate based on their present day motions yeah just
[00:14:25] reversed it and essentially he found that two of the stars in in the system are binary stars
[00:14:32] so they're they're opening each other and about a hundred thousand years ago they were a lot more
[00:14:38] visible they're a lot more separated but over the duration of about a hundred thousand years
[00:14:43] their orbits have become closer and closer making them indistinguishable in the sky
[00:14:48] and so you know this is a way to kind of explain maybe why one day there were seven sisters
[00:14:56] and something happened to them and now you know we only see less than seven but it's also
[00:15:02] a way that we can kind of date or have some idea or the antiquity right the age of this
[00:15:10] this shared story and what it what it really suggests or a loot stew is you know maybe
[00:15:16] people were a lot more connected you know back in the day and then we kind of give them credit for
[00:15:23] wow when were the stars hidden are they are still right now I guess yeah yeah so
[00:15:33] they're orbits are getting closer and closer like you can't I imagine you know with the types
[00:15:40] of telescopes that gave Raid the start off or him to be able to do this this type of analysis
[00:15:44] they would be able to distinguish the true stars from each other but without without with our eyes
[00:15:50] that become not possible at least Raid's research suggests that that become they became
[00:15:57] indistinguishable about a hundred thousand years ago yeah wow you know if we think about
[00:16:04] that in terms of ageing the story that's that's just a lower limit right but that's that's
[00:16:11] the point that it became indistinguishable they would have been generations before that that would
[00:16:16] have been talking about the seven sisters and you know had had different stories about them and
[00:16:21] we're sharing them across the earth allow just a bit to think about it there
[00:16:30] just things that I like to okay my life is it's amazing like yeah it just collapses
[00:16:39] time right or gives you access to totally different time scales yeah absolutely and I think
[00:16:47] I think that is so so important and so lacking everywhere across the world at the moment
[00:16:56] and I think it's that really deep time perspective and you know I think we're dealing with such
[00:17:05] drastic changes environmentally with biodiversity our species and just coming you know existing
[00:17:12] in a global system we we don't have that deep time perspective we're completely lost it and
[00:17:20] that's you know that's why I'm such a fan of you my ancestors my culture are the indigenous
[00:17:28] cultures and first peoples and they're wisdom and insight into what it's been like to
[00:17:34] to exist on this planet for for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years and this is
[00:17:41] something that you've done a lot of work on how many years ago is it now a few years ago
[00:17:47] you in Gamma Roy, Esther physicist, Crystal Dinathalie wrote an incredible book Sky Country looking
[00:17:55] at Aboriginal relationship to the sky well how about you introduce this this book and
[00:18:05] I guess what it's about and I guess what was it even like to to work on and share
[00:18:14] I was absolutely it was yeah so we wrote myself an an crystal wrote this this book
[00:18:22] apart of the first knowledge series which is a collaboration with a bunch of deadly authors
[00:18:30] and experts in a bunch of different fields who basically come together with the publishers,
[00:18:36] teams and Hudson and the National Museum to create a series of books that touch on different
[00:18:43] subject areas within indigenous cultural so our book of course was astronomy we're both astronomers
[00:18:50] we're both our Gamma Roy people so it just kind of you know that we super lucky to be honest super
[00:18:56] blessed to be honest to kind of you know carry that flag I don't know how things were for
[00:19:06] you growing up Catherine but I did not see myself as writing a book especially on you know
[00:19:12] or achieving being a scientist or any of that but especially doing something that I'm
[00:19:19] representing my mob I'm representing I'm trying to represent the sophistication of our
[00:19:26] cultures and our ancestors and honestly it was quite terrifying I'm so grateful that it's
[00:19:34] it's done so well you know I did not have a good time at school and especially with English especially
[00:19:42] and so you know the fear was not doing it justice not doing well but yeah like people have just
[00:19:50] so I have just supported it and celebrated it which is exactly you know kind of what we were
[00:19:57] aiming for it's really cool more that we can promote this knowledge here there's knowledge
[00:20:03] celebrator and you know respect it likely treat other important religions but it obviously comes
[00:20:10] from a long history of being denied and being just completely ignored and you know I think it's just
[00:20:18] think we're really lucky that we get to we get to hear these stories now so yeah know the book
[00:20:26] the book's not amazing and it essentially covers brief glimpse into the the different facets of
[00:20:34] indigenous astronomy and I kind of think of this in three different ways so we have the indigenous
[00:20:42] astronomy that is kind of spoken about in early settler records in anthropological studies in
[00:20:52] books and stuff then the indigenous astronomy that mob use every day and share with each other and you
[00:21:01] know have embedded into their practices and their identity and sometimes their kinship systems
[00:21:09] and then there's kind of the interface between those two, those two different bodies of of knowledge
[00:21:15] and I think you know it's I think it's really important that we we do separate them because they
[00:21:23] they could never be the same and you'd never want them to be the same right for mom you know
[00:21:29] you know very strict rules around protocol and who can have certain knowledge is and there's
[00:21:35] really important reasons for those rules should be in place and you can't you wouldn't want just
[00:21:43] the academic narrative to be to be the the community one either obviously so yeah it's really
[00:21:50] important and you know we go into different types of knowledge and different applications and all
[00:21:55] the fun stuff but then also like the broader picture stuff making sure that where we're protecting
[00:22:00] these knowledge and communities and people are really in charge of the intellectual
[00:22:07] cultural property yeah it's a different perspective than the western perspective on knowledge
[00:22:14] which just wants to consume it or right eat it it's that's a choice they made some choices
[00:22:31] but I find it it's also reading your your book I found it also a bit of a tool to try to
[00:22:40] deepen or change the relationship with the with the sky like it really it really helped me change my
[00:22:48] understanding and connection and you know I'm not a astronomer I was in a role where I was
[00:22:56] doing a lot of astronomy but it did be a totally different to me than other sciences or parts
[00:23:02] of our world and in earth but can you say what what sky country is or what it encapsulates
[00:23:12] or what it what does it mean it's it's really and and you know it's funny you know how
[00:23:21] I've been brought up in a western system just as you know most of us and I was really lucky
[00:23:28] that I that I was also brought up introduced to indigenous culture and and just ways of being
[00:23:34] and learning and so it's it's funny you know when we when we try and do that that have that
[00:23:41] compulsion to break things yeah it's about very close yeah yeah you know I think it's it's useful
[00:23:52] to be to be able to do that and to be able to have both scopes to to save both pictures
[00:23:59] I guess the main sky country is it's it's just the top part of how it's how place we have the bottom
[00:24:08] part which is the land and then we have the top part which is the sky and it's it's this space that
[00:24:16] we you know where we're connected to and there's lots of different places in in sky country
[00:24:24] so we have the river in the sky which is is the Milky Way and the river has all these creatures
[00:24:31] in it and beside the river there's all the campsites but then behind the river there's sky
[00:24:38] sky sky camp which is essentially like in like an aboriginal idea of like heaven or like after
[00:24:47] life it's it's with the place that actually like the initiated people go to when when they leave
[00:24:56] us and then the not initiated people they actually go to the small Magellanic cloud which is
[00:25:06] a satellite galaxy of the Milky Way but you can see it in the southern sky you know they get sent
[00:25:12] they actually get sent back to us and so you know the the skies filled with knowledge and
[00:25:18] places and people and I think you know thinking about what sky country is for different
[00:25:27] indigenous groups around the world not just you know not just here in Australia but for other
[00:25:34] First Nations peoples you know it's it's this overwhelmingly it's this place that is filled with
[00:25:44] kin and family and relationships that have been built for by families for multiple generations
[00:25:54] and it's a place that many communities talk about going to and talk about people start people
[00:26:01] coming to to the land and they're being this kind of ongoing relationship with with this place
[00:26:09] I wanted to also talk about another article that you contributed to the chapter safeguarding
[00:26:19] indigenous sky rights from colonial exploitation that was part of an incredible handbook
[00:26:25] textbook the red-legged handbook for outer space studies in this article there's a line that
[00:26:35] outer space is often regarded as lifeless and inanimate a true wilderness it is sometimes
[00:26:40] regarded not only as an untapped resource that we are morally obligated to exploit but to ensure
[00:26:47] humanity's survival I think this yeah like you can just see the contrast of of this thinking
[00:26:55] and you know things don't think so come from nowhere um and you know when we are looking
[00:27:03] exploring new places and our presence in space we the power is that be I won't say me because it's
[00:27:15] not us it's the power is that be they look to settle a colonialism and that's really what has been
[00:27:24] informing and fueling unfortunately the space industry the historic space rights and now wherever we find
[00:27:33] ourselves I kind of this era and like many people have been calling you know the era for
[00:27:38] after a colonialism that's kind of what we're seeing you know when we when we even think at the very
[00:27:44] on the very basic level how we perceive space talk about outer space and it being a vacuum
[00:27:52] and it's really funny because the other hat I wear is obviously doing astronomy physics
[00:28:00] where I literally study the matter between stars I study all the different molecules and atomic
[00:28:08] matter that we we talk about as being a vacuum and you know I spend my whole PhD and all of my
[00:28:16] days trying to figure out this really complex environment that is absolutely not a vacuum
[00:28:24] but you know that's that's kind of the the perception that we get about it and it's it's really
[00:28:32] not coincidental this is one of those things that you know we joked before about coincidences this
[00:28:37] is really not a coincidence you know when we think about the close to home the colonization of Australia
[00:28:45] like Tantaranolius is very very similar to how we kind of treat space so Tantaranolius being
[00:28:55] a term that that was used to kind of say that there was there was no one here you know Astralia
[00:29:01] is free land and and free to go to the queen because it's Tantaranolius it doesn't belong to anyone
[00:29:07] and we kind of take that same approach now with the cosmos like no one owns Mars no one owns
[00:29:12] the moon we can just do things and put a base there and and terraform and colonize it
[00:29:18] and you know the richest people on earth have accessed to the the the benefits and the the
[00:29:25] wealth and everything that that comes from that and it's exactly a replication of colonialism
[00:29:34] but you know we go into like a styling and the the light pollution that's that's been generated
[00:29:42] by it just the the physical changing and and polluting of our sky which as you said at the
[00:29:50] you know the start of this this podcast like this is this is a shared a shared resource of
[00:29:57] everyone's right we all have rights and responsibilities to to the sky to the moon to
[00:30:03] to you know our home it doesn't just belong to insanely wealthy
[00:30:10] billionaires in the in the solar system yep there's so much there's so much there but yes certainly
[00:30:18] putting your flag on the moon doesn't make it yours right yeah and and why would it
[00:30:27] if space exploration you know there are treaties around space exploration and exploitation
[00:30:33] and you know there's two treaties in particular and one a lot of people have signed on to the
[00:30:40] latter treaty which was a lot more I guess you know extreme in trying to make
[00:30:48] trying to protect space really and trying to to protect it from colonial exploitation
[00:30:54] and no one signed on to that treaty is this that is this the moon treaty or the treaty for
[00:31:01] outer space yeah yes yeah this is this is the moon treaty a lot of people signed on to the outer
[00:31:08] space but then the moon treaty was really trying to so again protect protect space another thing
[00:31:14] that you said earlier when you're just when we were talking about language and you know even the
[00:31:21] that's not true but talking about outer space calling it that makes you see it that way it teaches
[00:31:29] you how to relate to it another thing that that I it was you who said in your conversation with Alice
[00:31:37] Gorman last August that I thought about a lot since two is that yeah you have to see it as dead
[00:31:46] in space to colonize it and yeah another thing that you you you mentioned that I think is
[00:31:56] at first like coming being exposed to this takes a while to kind of understand that it's finite
[00:32:02] resources in space because it is opposite of you know how it's been kind of sold to us as
[00:32:08] boundless but there's only lower the orbit has finite capacity this the transletter space I'm
[00:32:17] read as another kind of contested area the space between Earth and the Moon that's going to get
[00:32:23] jumped up it's it's it's already very congested the the space between us and like quotation marks
[00:32:33] outer space it's it's there's millions of little pieces of space debris that has has been kind
[00:32:43] of dumped and abandoned there for the troll decades and now we're putting more and more stuff up there
[00:32:53] and you know it has it has started being impact and and that's just that's just near Earth
[00:33:00] right like there's there's so much more that's you know that that people are thinking about
[00:33:08] and and planning and I feel like scheming I feel like it's like an episode of Scooby Doo when
[00:33:16] the nasty like corporate people like scheming behind the scenes of you know what resources they're
[00:33:23] going to extract and and it's really interesting because on the one hand you know like you're saying
[00:33:28] it is a finite resource pool you have asteroids that could very well harbor lots of quite
[00:33:38] random in ones that aren't readily available here on earth and you know the the person who has
[00:33:45] access to mining that will exceed all of us billionaires in in wealth by far because of the the
[00:33:56] sheer literal astronomical amount of wealth that you know mining something like that could
[00:34:03] could bring to you know one one personal one organization or company for a long time people
[00:34:08] have been having this discussion and you know there's there's been a lot of will from from people
[00:34:15] to to do this and to kind of treat the solos the rest of the solar system as you know
[00:34:20] our dumping ground and the canteen you know we can just go there whenever to get whatever
[00:34:25] it's very put your Tesla when you're done with it yeah yeah it's you know to save to save
[00:34:33] planet Earth to save us it would be a way out for for a period of time potentially if we even made it
[00:34:41] to being you know space fairing and and being able to traverse our solar system we're
[00:34:47] talking about the radiation and yeah we need to be we need to be real about there there are
[00:34:54] such significant challenges in doing that like it's not a given it's it's not a given
[00:35:01] that we will we will be able to do that it's it's really not a given that that the human space
[00:35:07] scenes will will exist for long enough for that to to be a reality so we we also have to you know
[00:35:14] we can't bank on Elon going to Mars and creating like this resource field utopia are because it's
[00:35:26] well it's it's just not addressing the problem is it's it's just kind of doing the same thing
[00:35:32] expecting the same yeah the same exponential growth the same like infinite consumption of of non-renewable
[00:35:41] resources and it's just not possible yeah it's all that without oxygen yeah and and and
[00:35:52] bone density like it can't even hold yourself up no no much of a utopia slugs on those
[00:36:02] yes yeah beautiful sun sets yeah so sometimes we watch the earth set
[00:36:15] there are telescopes perfect telescopes yeah
[00:36:22] oh gosh all of that and yeah and just even with the
[00:36:32] with the treaties to right it's like the moon you have to negotiate a bit but asteroids
[00:36:39] for the take-in like where the values kind of get thinner like yeah where the it's so fascinating
[00:36:49] I wanted to go to another place in our universe with you Carly
[00:36:54] oh yeah when that we share with billions of other stars and planets that you know a whole lot
[00:37:05] about the Milky Way
[00:37:09] and this is possibly my favorite favorite subject what what's the Milky Way what makes it
[00:37:20] what kind of defines it so the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy it's the galaxy that we we are lucky
[00:37:30] to to live in in earthy's position and you know the sun was born here it's really defined by
[00:37:38] it's it's shape so it has this this bold in the middle which we believe you know there's
[00:37:45] there's a bunch of stars there so it's just really this really bright bold but underneath all
[00:37:50] those stars we when we know that there's there's a super massive black hole there and that's essentially
[00:37:56] very slowly and non-aggressively pulling in or all the matter um and you know if we step a little
[00:38:07] bit outside of that you have this this bar of stars and gas and matter that has formed over time
[00:38:16] and this is you know due to title interactions and the spinning off of the discs or the
[00:38:22] the Milky Way disc has you know these spiral arms coming out from the centre and those arms
[00:38:29] rotate they have a a rotational speed they're rotating at about 200 and 20 kilometers per second
[00:38:37] those are the types of things that yeah I try to think about but most specifically I'm really
[00:38:43] interested in the the centre of the galaxy and and again like the the spaces kind of between things
[00:38:50] and so you know we have a lot of hydrogen in in our galaxy and hydrogen is is the first element
[00:38:58] on the periodic table and it's it's really the building block for for all other elements that
[00:39:04] that we know of and you know the building block of of the universe everything that that we can see
[00:39:09] at least but you know keep in mind there's a lot that we can't see and so you know I like to
[00:39:15] to look up the the galaxy through the lens of of this element to see where this building block
[00:39:21] is you know situated within within the galaxy and from our position you know where inside this galaxy
[00:39:29] so that's kind of our view that we we get when we look out there whether we're looking out
[00:39:36] with our eyes or with radio or optical telescopes we see the view of the Milky Way from the
[00:39:43] position of being inside the Milky Way so for me it's great because we have beautiful high resolution
[00:39:51] data because it's so close it's also you know we're also inside of the the galaxy with all these
[00:39:59] motions happening and so it can be it can be pretty tricky to kind of get a coherent picture
[00:40:06] of what but you know that's fine I think that that really is my favorite thing about science
[00:40:12] that we we have all these things to figure out all these mysteries and so yeah I try and think
[00:40:19] about where where the galaxy is what the galaxy is doing ultimately you know the the galaxy's
[00:40:26] forming stars just like our sun every year it forms a about a star a little bit less than a star
[00:40:33] every year and to do that it needs gas to do that and you know there are lots of different types
[00:40:42] of galaxies we we we're really lucky because we're we're in this beautiful spiral galaxy
[00:40:48] and spiral galaxies typically are still forming stars but later on galaxies or galaxies
[00:40:56] that perhaps didn't have as much gas when they were forming they they no longer form stars and
[00:41:03] we call them red and dead galaxies there essentially there are essentially a beehive of
[00:41:12] of stars and you know planetary systems buzzing around like a central core but they they lose their
[00:41:21] spiral shape and they just kind of turn into kind of like a elliptical like this spherical
[00:41:27] beehive sort of you know stars and planets zooming around and yeah they they no longer form stars
[00:41:35] so that's kind of what makes our galaxy interesting it's still forming stars we also have
[00:41:42] have no real idea about you know where where our galaxy has gotten all its gas from it's gone through
[00:41:52] our galaxy is gone through periods of time where it was what we called quenched where it had
[00:41:59] it had no no no gas reservoir to it's forms stars from but somehow it's gone through
[00:42:08] some some event whether that is like a merger so just like we we see the large and small
[00:42:15] marginal in a cloud in our sky there's a you know dwarf galaxies that our Milky Way is
[00:42:21] is basically stripping a full of its resources so you know that that potentially could have
[00:42:29] triggered the galaxy essentially coming back to life and forming stars again and you know
[00:42:36] galaxies go through multiple periods over billions of years of you know being quenched and
[00:42:44] then becoming star forming again and you know then eventually they just they fizzle out and have
[00:42:51] no more gas and they they turn into those those big hives yeah for the hydrogen is fueling
[00:43:00] the galaxy yeah yeah pretty much it's it's fueling everything that that we know you know
[00:43:11] again there's a lot that we don't we don't see the vast majority of of mass out there is stuff
[00:43:19] that we don't know and we can't see and we can't measure but yeah after this stuff that we we can
[00:43:26] measure yeah hydrogen is it's it's it's building book so interesting and that there's
[00:43:34] yeah every solar system or star within the Milky Way is a different age on its own kind of
[00:43:42] trajectory within this system fascinating and the I don't know has the Milky Way always had a
[00:43:54] poll on you we were able to do you have dark skies and grow up with the Milky Way what's the
[00:44:01] was there a time where it really struck you that you wanted to spend your scientific career researching
[00:44:08] it what's the kind of your relationship with the Milky Way kind of priest I definitely didn't always
[00:44:18] have a relationship with with the Milky Way or I didn't have a particularly strong relationship with
[00:44:24] the sky even growing up like I I had dalled the sky and you know I grew up in time worth
[00:44:30] like a roll town in in New South Wales so we didn't have a lot of life pollution or anything like that
[00:44:36] and you know I always had really beautiful sky and always did really appreciate just just the
[00:44:44] natural world in general around me and you know obviously still through today but it was you know
[00:44:53] never like this thing that I was like you know obsessed about or anything like that
[00:45:00] and and you know I really wasn't wasn't exposed to things like science or physics
[00:45:10] until I was I was much older in life you know when I was around 19 or 20 years old and you
[00:45:17] know I had science subject at school like everyone else but I just didn't go to school so you know
[00:45:25] it just wasn't something that that I was particularly engaged in but when I was eventually exposed
[00:45:30] to physics and you know it happened to be through a philosophy course that I was doing at university
[00:45:36] at the time I just become really enamored and just in awe of you know both both out
[00:45:45] understanding of of the universe how incredibly complex and intricate and sophisticated
[00:45:52] the systems are that we observe but also that we as a society value this knowledge and
[00:46:02] that that's something you can do you you can spend your life researching the universe and
[00:46:10] and that just really blew my mind you know I'm coming from a background where no one in my family
[00:46:17] really had had a job my dad did work and my grandma worked my grandma was a nurse and my dad worked
[00:46:26] at coals for for many many years and you know but I really didn't have much of an understanding
[00:46:32] of like work and you know it was just it was it was really mild made that we we had all this
[00:46:41] knowledge and we were still in the pursuit of understanding our environment a little bit a little bit
[00:46:47] better and yeah I just found that really inspiring I still find a really inspired and you know thinking
[00:46:53] about space a humble there's a way to say it just I mean in the amazingness of everything that
[00:47:03] it does but thinking about space for many people can also be really scary and really existential
[00:47:09] and make them think about death and feel afraid and is it like that for you or was it at different
[00:47:21] times no I really I really don't have a specific solution for this problem I you know one
[00:47:33] of my best mates faces this exact problem and I do I do really understand it it can be quite overwhelming
[00:47:42] you know the scale of it all and the the vastness and the you know it's it's almost a feeling of
[00:47:51] isolation drastic isolation but I've never luckily never really experienced that the dealing with
[00:48:01] these really large numbers and scales of things like I think this is where I've always really gravitated
[00:48:09] towards fantasy realms and grew up reading Naniar and I think that really did me justice because
[00:48:17] I'm just able to accept these really extreme bizarre environments as as fact and as existing
[00:48:25] and just kind of accepted and not not dwell on it too much but for me like it's always had the
[00:48:32] opposite effect right you know I've really fell at times in my life incredibly overwhelmed as I'm
[00:48:38] sure everybody has like incredibly overwhelmed by the state of of things by the inequalities
[00:48:46] by the the climate crisis all the things that kind of keep you up a night and for me thinking about space
[00:48:55] thinking about the Milky Way thinking about our solar system environments beyond Earth I find
[00:49:02] really it it it comes me because it there's such a bit of pitch of happening and and yeah
[00:49:12] I actually I actually get immense amounts of conflict from from that and from from the incredible scale
[00:49:19] of the universe yeah and I guess seeing it as home too yeah absolutely and we've talked about
[00:49:33] a lot of different celestial objects and sustainability in space and I have seen an a language
[00:49:42] pop up about this I think there's a lot of different ways to talk about it in terms of space
[00:49:47] sustainability or celestial stewardship that has I guess a more active role or humans in it but
[00:49:57] it's also I guess is it a is it a tool talking about space and thinking about space in this
[00:50:03] ways to really just direct attention back at Earth and to think about the systems of Earth and
[00:50:10] I don't know is that is that a helpful way to think about it I think so and you know whenever we
[00:50:20] try to do something right we we we want a starting point and so this is our starting point and
[00:50:25] this is the one starting point that we have but what I kind of spend a lot of time thinking about
[00:50:32] and and trying to express and talk about is that we have we have different vastly different
[00:50:40] experiences here on Earth when it comes to you know whatever you want to call let's call it
[00:50:46] environmentalism or you know sustainable practices you know there are vastly different
[00:50:52] experiences when it comes to this and vastly different bodies of knowledge and expertise when
[00:50:58] it comes to this as well and so I think for me when we're thinking about learning from Earth
[00:51:05] to guide us with with our activities in space it's really about learning from that whole experience
[00:51:14] not just let's exploit and plunder and pillage and make a lot of money that's one side of that
[00:51:21] experience for sure that a very small amount of people actually get to benefit from them the other
[00:51:28] side of that is on the receiving end of that and so I think it's it's so vital for literal
[00:51:38] humanity like I know that I'm so dramatic I really think it's it's incredibly vital that
[00:51:50] we learn from from both of those experiences we don't just take one one side and run with it
[00:51:58] but we actually do try to to better ourselves to be conscious about our presence and our
[00:52:05] activities in the solar system on Earth as well obviously and you know just like where we're kind of
[00:52:12] going in after the fact now trying to stop using straw stop using plastic bags we take these
[00:52:21] measures now because we know better and all I can do and ask of everyone really but specifically
[00:52:29] the Meg Rich and and government all I can ask is that we we learn and we do better because we
[00:52:36] know better.
[00:52:50] That was my conversation with Carly Nun thank you for listening in huge thank you to Carly for
[00:52:55] sharing her genius planking them is hosted and produced by me Katherine Polts and our music
[00:53:01] is by Carl Diner listen to us wherever you get your podcasts and consider subscribing and reviewing our show
[00:53:09] discover a bit more about us at our website at plankingdim.urth