Forest ecologist Jen Sanger spends more time in big trees than most. In our conversation, she takes us into another world of canopy of Australia’s tallest trees and into Tasmania’s aptly named Grove of Giants. She shares the story of the evolution of the distinctive Tasmanian flora, the ecology of these special forests and the summer she helped get 500 community members nearly 100m up into the canopy.
Bio:
Dr Jennifer Sanger is the co-founder for The Tree Projects, a Tasmanian based an environmental outreach organisation which educates people about the worlds most notable trees. She is a passionate forest ecologist and has spent over a decade studying forests and the charismatic plants that inhabit them. She is both an expert tree climber and communicator and passionate advocate for Tasmanian forests.
This conversation is produced by Catherine Polcz with music by Carl Didur.
[00:00:00] I'm Catherine Polcz and this is Plant Kingdom.
[00:00:11] I'm recording in beautiful Sydney on the lands of the Gadigal people of the E.R. nation
[00:00:16] in pairs with their elders past, present and future.
[00:00:20] Plant Kingdom is a conversation series about plants, nature and environment.
[00:00:25] We're a scientist, artist, researcher, writers and healers.
[00:00:29] We release two conversations each month and hear from people who have an intimacy with
[00:00:33] plants and nature.
[00:00:35] We discuss their work, stories and reflections from the field.
[00:00:38] Today's conversation is with Dr. Jennifer Sanger.
[00:00:42] She'll take us into another world of the canopy of Australia's tallest trees and into
[00:00:46] Tasmania's aptly named Grove of Giants.
[00:00:50] We spoke about the evolution of the distinctive Tasmanian flora, the ecology of the special
[00:00:55] forest and the summer she helped get 500 community members nearly 100 meters up into the canopy.
[00:01:01] I'll now introduce Jen.
[00:01:05] Dr. Jennifer Sanger is the co-founder of the Tree Projects, a Tasmanian based environmental
[00:01:10] outreach organization which educates people about the world's most notable trees.
[00:01:15] She is a forest ecologist and has spent over a decade studying forests, epithides, forest
[00:01:20] carbon and biodiversity.
[00:01:23] She is both an expert tree climber and communicator and passionate advocate for Tasmanian forests.
[00:01:29] Here's our conversation.
[00:01:32] First question Jen, I wanted to ask you.
[00:01:41] You've spent definitely a lot of time in trees more than most of us for sure.
[00:01:47] How long have you been working with forests and trees and in the canopy?
[00:01:51] Is it something that you always had an affinity for or knew that you'd end up doing this
[00:01:56] kind of work?
[00:01:57] Yeah, I love trees as long as I can remember actually.
[00:02:02] I remember drawing up on a farm.
[00:02:03] We had some beautiful big gum trees that used to line our driveway and yeah, I always just
[00:02:09] remember looking up into the canopy of these trees with such fascination and some
[00:02:14] of the really old big hollows in them and seeing some parrots flying there and just thought
[00:02:20] they were absolutely wonderful.
[00:02:22] And then for my PhD, I decided to look into canopy ecology.
[00:02:27] Now, canopy ecology is looking at the realm of the canopy, particularly in rainforests
[00:02:33] because when you're in a rainforest it's often very dark at the forest floor and that's
[00:02:37] the kind of realm where humans exist in really.
[00:02:41] In terms of where all the photosynthesis, the more the production and everything's happening
[00:02:45] it's up in the canopy.
[00:02:47] And so I decided to start, that's to study a PhD looking at a group of plants called
[00:02:52] epiphytes.
[00:02:53] And so epiphytes were basically ferns and orchids and a whole bunch of other plants that actually
[00:02:58] grow on other trees.
[00:03:00] Yeah.
[00:03:01] And so often in tropical rainforests you actually have these gardens of all these epiphytes
[00:03:06] growing up into the canopy and it's just absolutely fascinating.
[00:03:11] So amazing, yeah we only really get to experience trees from their trunks really right and there's
[00:03:19] everything unfolding and happening in the canopy and then the same in the soil that's
[00:03:23] just really inaccessible to a lot of us.
[00:03:27] And you were doing this work in rainforests, where were you doing this field research
[00:03:30] to do some traveling?
[00:03:32] Was this in Australia where did you get to go?
[00:03:34] Yeah, so I had a very good life for my PhD.
[00:03:38] I was doing it through University of Tasmania so I was there during the summertime and then
[00:03:44] I travelled up to Northern New South Wales or Farnoth Queensland during the winter is
[00:03:48] to do my research.
[00:03:49] So I got to spend three months at the border ranges in Northern New South Wales and then
[00:03:54] another three months up in Mount Lewis National Park up in Farnoth Queensland.
[00:04:00] So it was very lovely getting to spend a couple of months at a time immersed in rainforest
[00:04:05] and it's a beautiful way to get to know to know a place.
[00:04:09] And is that time when you began climbing?
[00:04:12] Yeah, so in order to study epiphytes we need to kind of be able to reach them really
[00:04:18] and so I'd been volunteering during my undergraduate with the canopy research, I was a field work
[00:04:24] that was happening in various places around Australia and so I'd seen people climbing
[00:04:30] and always thought, wow that looks like it would be a lot of fun.
[00:04:33] And so yeah my husband and my aide both learnt to climb trees when we were actually over
[00:04:38] in the US before I started my PhD.
[00:04:41] And then yeah once I started my field work we ended up climbing over about 150 trees during
[00:04:47] my PhDs so we got quite proficient at climbing at the end but it was a very interesting experience
[00:04:55] learning and then being out in the wild forest by yourself and trying to implement that knowledge.
[00:05:01] It was yeah it was learning care of that's for sure.
[00:05:05] Yeah, it hooked you didn't it?
[00:05:07] And just another question just about epiphytes.
[00:05:10] Plants is just interesting how weird plants are, how many ways, how many environments they've
[00:05:15] adapted to and what are some of the conditions that epiphytes have to deal with?
[00:05:21] Yeah, they're really incredible because epiphytes, well most often you do find them in the tropical
[00:05:28] rainforest where it's quite humid and there's a lot of moisture because they don't have
[00:05:33] that direct connection to the ground.
[00:05:35] They usually rely on rainfall or mist for their water source and so often they're actually
[00:05:41] really quite drought adapted and they can actually survive really, really long periods
[00:05:46] without water.
[00:05:47] But they do a lot some really fascinating things like if you get a very dense patch of epiphytes
[00:05:53] they'll actually start developing a soil underneath it.
[00:05:56] So all the organic matter that's slowly dying around that, that will create like a soil
[00:06:01] that they're actually growing and so that can facilitate the growth of other plants as
[00:06:06] well.
[00:06:07] So in those little what we call canopy soils and remarkably what we actually saw in
[00:06:13] the border ranges is where a whole plot with epiphytes had fallen off the tree.
[00:06:19] You could actually see the tree had actually started to grow root from its branch into these
[00:06:24] canopy soils to access that nutrient.
[00:06:27] Yeah it was really fascinating.
[00:06:29] Wow, amazing how they are creating their own environment and conditions up in the branches
[00:06:37] too.
[00:06:38] Oh wow.
[00:06:40] And is, when did the tree projects come about?
[00:06:43] Who tell me about the tree projects and its kind of origin?
[00:06:46] Yeah so the tree project seems an organisation I run with my husband and we do a whole bunch
[00:06:52] of education and science outweigh around trees and forests and why it's important to
[00:06:57] protect them.
[00:06:58] So we actually started because we spent a lot of time in the forest and during my PhD
[00:07:05] climbing all these trees and you get like a really different sense of what a rainforest
[00:07:10] is.
[00:07:11] Most humans are kind of land-based mammals and so we only really have this access to the
[00:07:17] rainforest by the ground and when you're on the ground it's often very dark, it's shady,
[00:07:22] it's often moist but when you climb up into the canopy it's this completely different
[00:07:26] environment.
[00:07:27] It's sunny, there's lots of light, there's a whole bunch of different plants and animals
[00:07:31] up there that you don't really get to see and it's kind of like the opposite.
[00:07:35] It's like kind of visiting the beach but then in a snorkel and then suddenly being able
[00:07:41] to see everything that's under the water there's like a whole different world and that's
[00:07:44] kind of what's like in the canopy and so we were really interested in kind of how do
[00:07:50] you capture that and how do you can play that message.
[00:07:54] My husband's a really talented photographer so we started doing a whole bunch of photos
[00:07:58] and videos about the canopy environment and educating people through that way.
[00:08:04] Yeah, amazing.
[00:08:05] You can kind of, I guess, broaden the impact that you can have and engage more people
[00:08:09] than through science alone.
[00:08:12] When you came to Tasmania do you remember when you saw your first big tree or that encounter?
[00:08:19] Yes, I absolutely do.
[00:08:21] There's...
[00:08:22] I went out to an area called the Sticks Valley which is one of the more famous areas in Tasmania
[00:08:28] for giant trees and we went on...
[00:08:31] I went with the wilderness society actually.
[00:08:33] There were hosting kind of somewhat of an open day out there and we went out there and
[00:08:38] visited an area that's got a beautiful big tree called Grandolph Starfinant and I remember
[00:08:44] seeing these massive big trees and these forests and just being overwhelmed.
[00:08:50] I'm a lover of a tree but I've never ever seen anything that big before and I remember
[00:08:55] taking a photo and standing at the base of one of these trees and I kind of like reflecting
[00:09:00] back onto that photo because I never would have imagined at that stage of my life that
[00:09:06] I would do so heavily involved in big trees, especially big trees here in Tazie as
[00:09:12] well too.
[00:09:13] Yeah, a commitment to those trees isn't it?
[00:09:16] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:19] And I wanted to just talk a little bit about where the trees because this kind of a specific
[00:09:25] region or what's the kind of forest that you can find them in.
[00:09:30] Yeah so it's interesting they often talk about the big nuclear trees as in the terms
[00:09:35] of cold rock theory so they like it, they like it wet but not too wet.
[00:09:41] They like it mild but not too mild and they like a little bit of fire but not too much
[00:09:47] fire so there's all these things that are interacting but essentially you find big
[00:09:52] trees around the globe in these certain climate zones where the temperature is kind of mild
[00:09:59] so you knock it in its stream heat or treason cold.
[00:10:03] And also to the rainfall is usually around, oh this is a challenge maybe about like a
[00:10:08] meter of rainfall maybe a little bit more.
[00:10:10] They kind of grow in that area but they also kind of need to have like fairly consistent
[00:10:15] rainfall as well too so Tasmania meets that criteria also south of western Australia.
[00:10:22] You have the big territories that are growing over there and then also to the Pacific Northwest
[00:10:28] and Northern California where you find big redwoods and the Douglas Fores and the sick
[00:10:33] resources in all the big giant trees over there as well.
[00:10:37] It's having that right weather conditions to make it just perfect for them.
[00:10:41] The other thing about the Euclids 2 is fire so with a lot of the big trees down here they're
[00:10:48] Euclid dysregnums so mountain that sure we call them swamp gums in Tasmania they regenerate
[00:10:54] after fire.
[00:10:55] When a fire comes through it will kill them and they will regenerate from seed after a fire
[00:11:01] and they'll grow really quickly and rapidly after fire.
[00:11:04] So because fire kills these trees they kind of ideally need fire intervals that are around you
[00:11:11] know 200 to 500 years but they're able to grow up really big and then a fire will come through
[00:11:17] and then it'll replace it with younger trees.
[00:11:20] So yeah they do need fire to keep persisting these big Euclids but they need it at fairly large gaps
[00:11:28] and that's historically what we're seeing here in Tasmania you know there'd be a big catastrophic
[00:11:32] fire that might happen every 500 years or something like that so a very rare event.
[00:11:37] And Euclid dysregnums, it in Latin the regnums means reigning or ruling tree about its
[00:11:43] hate very tall tall trees how tall are these trees.
[00:11:49] The tallest one in Tasmania and the tallest Euclid dysregnums in the world is a tree called
[00:11:54] Centurion and that's 100.5 meters tall that's it so yeah just over 100 meters which is absolutely
[00:12:03] huge and in terms of size two they can actually grow quite wide so there's often some at the base
[00:12:11] that might be up to six meters in diameter which is absolutely huge. That would probably I don't
[00:12:17] know we may be about like being also adults you know surrounding hand and hand for something
[00:12:22] that big it's it's absolutely huge so yeah and in terms of their age as well too they probably
[00:12:30] probably around 500 to 600 years we think is how long they live there are trees in the world
[00:12:36] that do live a lot longer than that because they have this kind of fire intervals they kind of general
[00:12:42] tend to mature a bit quicker than than other species around the world. So with its life cycle it
[00:12:48] doesn't need fire to germinate or just creates kind of the spaces and the canopy and the opportunity
[00:12:55] for for growth? Yeah it doesn't necessarily need to germinate but it just it incenses the you know so
[00:13:03] you create isn't creates an ash bed so there's a releasing new experience that happens after a
[00:13:08] fly goes through the forest and on the eclipse we've gotten really good at capitalizing on that nutrient
[00:13:13] boost and then growing as quickly as possible after that but they don't necessarily need fire but it
[00:13:19] it helps a lot. It's so interesting and challenging to think about 500 years because it might spend
[00:13:26] a lot of that time kind of in the understory it's a small tree or a mid-sized tree waiting to grow
[00:13:33] up or though like what's the is that kind of the case? Yeah yeah they actually shoot up quite quickly
[00:13:40] so a lot of them can grow quite rapidly and that's their strategy so they'll just start growing
[00:13:45] really really quickly and in Victoria for instance where you could with regnans also exist there's
[00:13:51] some trees that are 90 years old that are already over 90 meters tall so that's a meter a year
[00:13:58] that they're growing which is pretty impressive so they'll reach them maximum light you know maybe
[00:14:03] 100 to 200 years old and then as they age they just get fatter and fatter and then start like
[00:14:11] they call it senescing and so they'll start kind of the the branches at the top will start dying off
[00:14:18] and it'll slowly start losing height but some of these really big old trees you'll often see
[00:14:23] that it's kind of they've got dead tops on it and it just gets it's just because they get
[00:14:27] harder for them to keep pulling up order from that at that height for too long so yeah
[00:14:34] So it's a little bit of the the size and that they're aging? Yeah I often compare them to humans
[00:14:42] just like once they're not getting older they start getting wider and then um start going
[00:14:46] through Ion tops so yeah never thought of a tree as aging? Yeah yeah um yes there's so many
[00:14:56] multiple generations of trees existing in the same forest and that's I guess we if you're lucky
[00:15:01] to have the old growth forest right you have those big trees yeah also what you said because
[00:15:07] that's often this catastrophic fire that's gone through often in not really old growth forest you'll
[00:15:13] find a lot of really old euclids and often there's not a lot of young ones because there hasn't been
[00:15:18] that fire for them to to regrow and what you'll find is there's a rainforest under story that'll
[00:15:25] slowly start growing underneath it and then you get these beautiful foresties giant emerging
[00:15:31] euclids from all this really beautiful rainforest that's grown in the understory.
[00:15:36] Beautiful. I wanted to ask you also about the grove of giants kind of another area where these trees
[00:15:43] grow can you tell me about the grove of giant? Yeah absolutely. Grove of giants is a beautiful patch
[00:15:49] of forest in Tasmania so unfortunately in Tasmania we're still logging a lot of our forests and a
[00:15:55] lot of our fewer forests and older forests as well and we kind of keep an eye on what's going around
[00:16:02] and we noticed that there was this one spot where there was they just recently logged and there was
[00:16:07] this massive tree that was about about four and a half meters in diameter that they cut down
[00:16:13] and it was too big for them to take away so they'll just left it there. I think we were looking at
[00:16:18] that and we're thinking oh you know this is such a waste and then we kind of looked at the forests
[00:16:23] behind it and then we were just thinking wow you know there's a lot of big trees behind there and
[00:16:29] we kind of had a look look into the forest and we found that there was all these massive big trees
[00:16:34] throughout this area and when we got home we looked and found that there's actually a proposed
[00:16:40] logging coop and it was actually get logged in 2023 so I think this was about a couple of years ago
[00:16:46] when we first first went in there and so we decided to kind of have a proper look at it and we have
[00:16:52] a whole bunch of friends who love going out and sliding big trees, a lot of good community and a
[00:16:57] couple of friends who'd actually found a tree within that area called Latinus clip and it just
[00:17:03] has happened to be the biggest blue gum ever have a known so blue gum is a euclip dysclobulous
[00:17:11] and it's Hazy's national oh sorry it's Hazy's state floral emblem actually they're really beautiful
[00:17:17] big trees and so we decided to do a whole survey of the area and we actually found that there was
[00:17:23] 150 trees over four meters diameter in this forest and so we thought wow you know this is special
[00:17:30] this is a really special spot so we decided to kind of you know start a bit of a campaign about it
[00:17:35] and we named it the the growth of giants and so we started doing open days and getting people out
[00:17:42] on site and you know people have come out to the forest and we take them to a walk out to
[00:17:46] Latinus keep and we'd also take them tree climbing as well we learnt the system of getting
[00:17:53] been able to tank people who have no climbing experience up into the trees using a hauling system
[00:17:57] when we're over in the US and it was an absolute amazing success so people we take them out these
[00:18:03] 60 meters up a tree and you know they'd spend a couple of minutes up the top and then we take
[00:18:08] them back down and you know these people would come come down from the tree and they'd just be so
[00:18:12] excited or there was a few people that were in tears because it was such a beautiful experience and
[00:18:19] yeah it was just such a wonderful way to provide outreach because people you know you can show some
[00:18:25] on a forest but if you can actually give them a meaningful experience then it's something that
[00:18:30] they really it stays with them and we were really lucky we were able to get that area taken off the
[00:18:35] logging schedule after a lot of hard work and campaigning and but most of that was due with the
[00:18:40] fact that we take these people out there and they moved by the experience that as soon as they got
[00:18:45] home they'd be calling their members of parliament or writing to their minister talking about
[00:18:50] how special this area was and well is and how they wanted to protect it's and it's such a
[00:18:58] descriptive but also really gorgeous name grove of giants like what is and a lot of the trees have
[00:19:04] individual names to write I wanted to ask what is the significance of naming these areas and
[00:19:11] naming the trees it really helps in raising awareness yeah um I think it really just helps give
[00:19:17] the trees character I think a lot of so for instance um lathamus keep it's a blue gum and
[00:19:24] lathamus is the name is the scientific name of the with parrot who um is a was an accredited
[00:19:31] ingrained bird that actually relies on the blue gum for its food source so lathamus keep was a
[00:19:37] fantastic name for that and it just more comes down to whoever whoever discovers the tree basically
[00:19:43] has naming rights um and I don't know how how long this would take to describe but like how do you
[00:19:51] even climb a tree like that how long does it take to get up the tree how do you do it yeah so
[00:20:00] climbing climbing big trees is really interesting um it can take a short amount of time or it can
[00:20:06] take a very long amount of time it all depends a lot on on luck and the complexity of the tree so
[00:20:13] one of the hardest things with big tree climbing is actually getting a line up there in the first
[00:20:18] place so the process usually is is that you have a throw ball with a really light line and you've
[00:20:24] got to get that up a higher branch as possible and then from that use that line to fill up your
[00:20:30] climbing line now in big trees getting some of these branches you know 40 50 meters off the ground
[00:20:37] and so there's many different devices that we use we have a thing called a big shot which is
[00:20:42] essentially just a giant sling shot which we use and we can get that pretty high up a tree
[00:20:47] also to um some people use pneumatic cannon pneumatic cannon so basically uh like it's like a giant
[00:20:54] potato gun as mentally so you have to pump this tube and then you can shoot um shoot a throw ball
[00:21:01] from then but then yeah you've got to pull up the climbing line and then and hopefully that's
[00:21:06] over something that's a good good shot and it's investing in it to make sure everything secure
[00:21:11] and then you've usually got to get a fairly experienced climber to go up first then they will what
[00:21:16] they refer to is advance the line up the tree so if they'll climb to the tall at the highest spot
[00:21:21] that they can but then often they'll have to throw ropes over branches above them and move that
[00:21:27] climbing line up in so you can get to the top of the tree so sometimes we can get pre-rigged in
[00:21:33] a couple of hours if we're lucky um sometimes it might take all day it just it just depends
[00:21:39] yeah and you're you're involved with measuring a lot of these trees too can you can you tell me
[00:21:46] about the big tree register yeah so we specifically like measuring trees because here in Tasmania
[00:21:53] as I mentioned before we're still logging a lot of our big trees and one of the few ways we can
[00:21:58] actually get trees protected is to classify them as what's referred to as giant so any tree over 85
[00:22:04] meters tall for protected um and then anything over 280 cubic meters will be protected as well
[00:22:12] now the tall trees the 85 meter trees are actually quite easily to identify now thanks to LIDAR
[00:22:19] for that's kind of aerial laser imagery that taken across the forest and that can identify the big
[00:22:27] trees the tall trees very easily but it's not so good as identifying the volumetric
[00:22:33] giants for the flatt ones especially um and so that's what we do with the tree climbing as we go
[00:22:39] out and we measure these big big fat trees the CFA classifier is volumetric giants so it's a
[00:22:45] bit of a process but it's a way for us to actually protect the big trees and then we've got the as
[00:22:51] you mentioned before we've got the giant tree register that is a record of all the big trees
[00:22:57] that exist across Tazzi it's a very um powerful and effective way of just direct conservation isn't it
[00:23:06] and the Tasmanian flora we were talking about this a little bit the last time just the uniqueness
[00:23:12] I bet it's a little bit you know has some similarities with mainland Australia but it's also really
[00:23:17] unique what's the kind of story and evolution of the flora in this region
[00:23:24] we have a lot of what they're called um wonderland relic here in Tazzi, New York so um we have a
[00:23:29] whole bunch of really interesting pine trees which some people might be familiar with so
[00:23:33] Curen pine and Billy pine pencil pines things like that we've got a beautiful species
[00:23:39] couple beautiful species of middle beach so no defaigit there's an incredibly old lineage of trees
[00:23:46] but essentially what happened is that you know when um Australia was part of wonderland and continent
[00:23:52] everything was very wet and mild and and rain forestry and as the wonderland continent started
[00:23:59] breaking out from Australia started moving north it started to dry out a lot and a lot of
[00:24:05] but gondwana plants kind of got restricted to to cooler parts like Tasmania or mountain tops as well
[00:24:12] too so you cannot find a lot of gondwana relics around the great dividing range in some of those
[00:24:18] um higher mountains um in the rainforest areas so yeah we've kind of got this relic of these
[00:24:24] ancient plant lineages and they're just a lot called plants and trees so yeah very special place
[00:24:31] and in the forest too you've been also doing a lot of work measuring the carbon storage capacity
[00:24:39] or how much carbon is in the forest can you can you tell me about that and why why that is important
[00:24:44] to understand yeah so we were really interested to look at this more because I've been doing a
[00:24:51] bit of research looking at the emissions from native forest logging here in Tasmania because often
[00:24:57] people say that the wet nuclear forests um of Australia are some of the most carbon dense forests
[00:25:02] in the world and so that got me thinking you know well if we're cutting down the most carbon dense
[00:25:07] forests in the world then the emissions are going to be pretty huge right so um I had a look into it
[00:25:13] and what I actually found was that the emissions from native forest logging here in Tazio is quite huge
[00:25:18] it's about 4.65 million tons of carbon per year and to put that into perspective it's actually
[00:25:24] makes it the highest emitting sector in all of Tasmania Tasmania being quite low population and we
[00:25:30] have a lot of our energy needs met from hydro power so a lot of renewables are ready um and so
[00:25:37] that it was yes so emissions from forestry was by far the most spiced emitting sector in the state
[00:25:43] do those emissions come from just the change in the landscape or burning the landscape or decomposition
[00:25:51] where do those emissions come from yeah so I think there's a common misconception that people think
[00:25:56] that you know when a forest is logged all of that timber is turned into you know long-lasting wood
[00:26:01] products but what actually happens is only about 1% of the forest via a mask get burned into
[00:26:08] thorn timber which is used for building and furniture a vast majority of the biomass
[00:26:14] is end-uppers waste so about 60% is actually left on fire and that's burned and then yes 60%
[00:26:21] so that's all the the root the branches for leaves and then a lot of those stuff that does get
[00:26:27] taken away is actually just used in short-term products like paper and so um not only really has
[00:26:33] a lifespan of an average about two years before that carbon release back into the atmosphere
[00:26:38] we've actually also been going out to the forest and actually measuring specific faults as well
[00:26:44] so we were really interested to know the carbon density of the growth of giants you know since it
[00:26:49] is a growing giants we thought that the carbon must be pretty huge there so we measured trees in
[00:26:55] a patch of forests there we had a week science week where we got a whole bunch of tree climbers
[00:27:00] to come from New Zealand and Australia to come down and do the big measurement of the trees
[00:27:05] and what soil scientists seem to do measurement of the carbon of the soil and yeah we found
[00:27:11] the growth of giants had the highest measurement of carbon out of any forest in Tasmania so that
[00:27:17] was part of cool to have that result wow yeah it's interesting to consider in the balance of
[00:27:23] Tasmania likes to say that it's carbon neutral or carbon positive in terms of its energy right but
[00:27:29] yeah there's such a race to camp carbon everywhere and what does it mean because then even wooden
[00:27:34] products or wooden building they say it's carbon storage but it's all come from somewhere and it's
[00:27:39] it's complex isn't it yeah yeah yeah has that research had much of a response or impact or started
[00:27:48] a kind of conversation about the value of the forest in a new way for for governments so yeah
[00:27:56] so my report was the first one that actually looked at the emissions specifically because
[00:28:00] the way that things are reported under the current reporting guidelines it's not very transparent
[00:28:06] you can actually see how much is actually coming from logging so mine was the kind of first report
[00:28:10] that kind of highlighted that so yeah it's definitely getting in traction and I just really
[00:28:16] keen to kind of highlight as much as I can just how important it is to protect our forests in terms
[00:28:21] of climate action because you know it's hands down protecting our forests is the best thing that
[00:28:27] Tasmania can do for climate action yeah and you need to put it into the language of the industry too
[00:28:34] don't you in terms of carbon and I wanted to talk to you again about the about like the community
[00:28:42] climbs and really building that community and making opening pathways for people to have that
[00:28:48] connection and form that relationship with those forests and with those trees you told me that
[00:28:53] over a summer you got something like 500 people up into a tree what how did you do that
[00:29:00] yeah so that was for the open days that we were having at the Grove John and yeah I had
[00:29:05] over those collective open days had over 500 people come out and visit so that was fantastic
[00:29:10] being able to hear that with so many people doing really good and who's coming to those to those
[00:29:16] claims is it kind of a cross-section of society or who who did the trees dry in yeah it was really
[00:29:25] amazing really didn't even really advertise it much after a while because people would just
[00:29:31] they would have such a great time and then go and tell all their friends and so we were just
[00:29:35] getting swamped with requests and whenever we published a new a new event it basically still out
[00:29:40] within 12 hours that was such demand of it but we were getting such a great cross-litch in a society
[00:29:46] lots of families will come out lots of the priorities as well and it was wonderful it was just
[00:29:52] such a great way to kind of share forests with the wider community and a lot of people who who'd
[00:29:57] kind of I think a lot of the because there's been such a hibiscus in Tasmania of yeah like
[00:30:03] forest protest being and there's a lot of conflict in in the forests and I think a lot of
[00:30:08] kind of a bit wary of that and so I think that for a lot of these people it was a lot of people
[00:30:14] really cared about forest but kind of maybe it was the first time they'd ever come out to a woman
[00:30:18] like this because it was we were kind of providing you know something that was a lot more engaging
[00:30:24] and a lot safer environment and just giving people a bit of a different experience I guess as well too
[00:30:30] so yeah it's been a lot of fun and it's a really transformative experience for a lot of people
[00:30:38] kind of created this sense of stewardship you were speaking to you a bit earlier yeah yeah it was
[00:30:44] that it was great a lot of people would just really took ownership of it because they kind of
[00:30:48] got this wonderful experience of how beautiful these forests are and it was probably something
[00:30:54] they'll kind of stay with yeah an experience that they'll treasure for quite a long time something
[00:31:02] it makes me think you know it's so rare that you get to see something from a totally different
[00:31:06] perspective and we hear about the overview effect when people are billionaires or
[00:31:12] tourists get to go to space and you know earth from the distance and looking vulnerable and is
[00:31:18] it kind of similar yeah I think so I saw this New York Times article yesterday just
[00:31:29] through my feed that was talking about psychologists doing sessions in nature like going for hikes
[00:31:36] and in bush walks with their patients and I thought that was just so appealing and so obvious
[00:31:43] that kind of healing aspect of being out in nature and yeah yeah I think we can all benefit by spending
[00:31:52] a lot more time in nature I think it's pretty good for our mental health it just kind of put words
[00:31:57] or put science to what you already know right like that it's beneficial to be outdoors and to
[00:32:04] experience awe and that kind of nature connection work that you're doing is kind of rebuilding those
[00:32:11] connections people have and letting them or giving them tools or pathways to you know have those
[00:32:17] experiences on their own do you have a favorite tree like are there trees I know when I was doing
[00:32:26] fieldwork you'd have certain plans or certain trees that you really liked and had a relationship with
[00:32:30] do you have a favorite tree oh that is such a fun question
[00:32:35] or there's some that you visit like do you return to the same trees up in or what yeah I do and
[00:32:44] you know what like I really want to say you know one of the big trees is my favorite or you know
[00:32:51] but I think there is one tree that I do return to actually it is we've got lucky enough to have
[00:32:56] some forest over the road and I like to go for walks there in the afternoon and there's
[00:33:02] but it's you know the forest itself is just kind of like your average woodland and it's not
[00:33:07] by any means anything special but there's just this one big old tree that's in the middle
[00:33:13] of the path that I walk in and it's just so much older than everything else around it and I just
[00:33:20] it has these beautiful branches this kind of sweep up and then down to the ground and it's
[00:33:27] got so much character and I love it and it just makes me wonder kind of how how did you survive
[00:33:33] all younger forest growing up around you and like you know how old are you and what have you seen
[00:33:38] and you know what animals are living in you and it's just such a beautiful tree and oh yeah
[00:33:44] I think there's I get to see it so often I've become good friends over the time I think.
[00:33:50] Totally yeah yeah it's really interesting being in the presence of those old trees and they just
[00:33:58] they experience time so differently and then you can kind of tap into that in a way I'm from
[00:34:05] yeah kind of the Niagara Scarment Region of Southern Ontario and there's these so it's
[00:34:09] kind of limestone glacial cliffs all over but there's 2,000 year old cedar tree old growth forest
[00:34:17] all there but all the cedar trees are like they're they're not big they're small and they're growing
[00:34:24] right out of the cliff face just such a mystery the how much they've seen change and you don't get
[00:34:33] a lot of that access maybe one one more question I love knowing knowing two from people what kind if
[00:34:39] there's been any works or writings or mentors or you know people who really have helped or
[00:34:48] inspired you or opened up your way of thinking on kind of this journey and but are there any
[00:34:54] special works that have really resonated with you yeah so I very fortunate to know a wonderful
[00:35:03] woman called Meg Lelman. And she's an American woman who was one of the pioneers in
[00:35:08] canopy research and so three developed pretty much canopy climbing in the 70s so she could
[00:35:15] study rainforest insects up in the canopy and she has just been such a wonderful mentor and she's
[00:35:22] written some really fabulous books about her experience and everything from you know been a woman
[00:35:27] working trying to work in science in the 70s through been a pioneer in her research field
[00:35:33] and she's just got such an absolute zest for life and just loves nature like no one I've ever met before.
[00:35:43] Yeah she's been a strong advocate for tree climbing and and getting people out in nature and
[00:35:49] and environmental education and it's such a rewarding area too isn't it because there's
[00:35:55] there's just endless things to keep learning about. Absolutely we are understanding of the natural
[00:36:02] world is swim in a school like this we're just discovering so much fantastic things every every day
[00:36:08] about the world it's yeah it's wonderful yeah yeah and plants too you'll never say yep no all of them
[00:36:17] I got it exactly
[00:36:25] that was my conversation earlier this year with Dr. Jennifer Sanger thank you for listening and
[00:36:36] huge thank you to Jen for sharing her work plant kingdom is hosted and produced by me
[00:36:42] Kevin Poltz and our music is by Carl Dider listen to us wherever you get your podcasts and check out
[00:36:49] our website at plantkingdom.earth